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Scottie Ferguson
Newbie
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 34
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 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:59 pm Post subject: Thinking about buying, have a few concerns |
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| Howdy all. I've following DRM for a while now, it seems like a very nice product. I've been making do with other software for a while, and it seems like DRM would make things easier. I do have a few concerns though: 1) DRM is under rapid development. That's good, but it does lead to the concern where you buy something, and then immediately have to pay to upgrade. This has come up here before, in reading the anger in past threads. At that time, there was discussion about implementing a window of upgrade, so as to prevent feeling cheated. Many companies have a policy of a completely free upgrade if you purchase immediately before the new version comes out, a reduced upgrade cost if you purchased a little further out, and a normal upgrade cost if you purchased before that. Has this policy been officially implemented? I will not be a happy camper if I pay $50 bucks, and then get hit up for more a few weeks later. This is a large amount of money for folks like me. 2) I've read some things about the software being tied to a certain computer. Again, if I get a new computer in a few months as planned, I will not be a happy camper if DRM no longer works, and I'm expected to buy it again. 3) The demo is useless. Just making some menu choices and clicking various items doesn't tell you the program will work. A time limited demo or a demo limiting you to some set number of exports would be far better. I could actually feel confident the product would work that way. Just because others have used it successfully doesn't mean it would work well on my ancient computer, or with the disks I own. 4) The upgrade price from Regular to Pro is too much. Buying Regular then upgrading to Pro if it's not powerful enough should cost the same as buying Pro initially. Especially when combined with 3), when you don't know if Regular does the job you need. |
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DimadSoft
DvdReMake Official support
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 2193
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 5:56 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about buying, have a few concerns |
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| Scottie Ferguson wrote: | | 1) DRM is under rapid development. That's good, but it does lead to the concern where you buy something, and then immediately have to pay to upgrade. |
All the minor updates are free to the registered users. What it means to the user? Say you were a user of v1. Then v2 was released with some considerable changes (compared to v1) and you had to pay some amount to upgrade to v2. Since then v2 got quite a few other changes (and some more are still coming) ABSOLUTELY FREE. Of course there is another way: we could have released v2 now. It would probably make some people happier (due to longer interval between versions), but (we think, of course we can be wrong) quite a few others, who use new features of v2 would not be as happy. | Quote: | | Many companies have a policy of a completely free upgrade if you purchase immediately before the new version comes out, a reduced upgrade cost if you purchased a little further out, and a normal upgrade cost if you purchased before that. Has this policy been officially implemented? |
We will have something simmilar implemented by the release of v3. | Quote: | | 2) I've read some things about the software being tied to a certain computer. Again, if I get a new computer in a few months as planned, I will not be a happy camper if DRM no longer works, and I'm expected to buy it again. |
Each copy will run correctly only on a computer it was downloaded for. At any time when your computer changes you simply download a new copy from you DimadSoft account. | Quote: | | 3) The demo is useless. Just making some menu choices and clicking various items doesn't tell you the program will work. A time limited demo or a demo limiting you to some set number of exports would be far better. |
No comments. EDITED: This has changed in v3: it is possible to export, but all cells will be cut at 15 seconds | Quote: | | I could actually feel confident the product would work that way. Just because others have used it successfully doesn't mean it would work well on my ancient computer, or with the disks I own. |
Does not sound logical. If you can import, do what you want without any problems on your computer then the only difference while exporting is the speed, have ancient disks - it will probably be slower. | Quote: | | 4) The upgrade price from Regular to Pro is too much. Buying Regular then upgrading to Pro if it's not powerful enough should cost the same as buying Pro initially. |
Why? Each transaction costs us some money. EDITED: This has changed in v3: upgrade from basic to Pro version is the same as price difference between programs.
Last edited by DimadSoft on Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:19 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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erdoke
Respected Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 342
Location: Lat. 47.3350 ° | Long. 21.3850 °
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 7:22 am Post subject: Re: Thinking about buying, have a few concerns |
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| Scottie Ferguson wrote: | | 1) DRM is under rapid development. That's good, but it does lead to the concern where you buy something, and then immediately have to pay to upgrade. |
Hi and welcome to the forum.  I'm pretty sure that the upgrade price will be at least reasonable from v. 2 to v. 3. It means that you'll get the value what you pay for or even more. If the changes are not valuable for you, upgrade won't be forced, you just stay with v. 2. | Quote: | | 2) I've read some things about the software being tied to a certain computer. Again, if I get a new computer in a few months as planned, I will not be a happy camper if DRM no longer works, and I'm expected to buy it again. |
Actually the software rather "tied" to a person (the registered user) than to a certain computer. I would call that reasonable too.  | Quote: | | 3) The demo is useless. Just making some menu choices and clicking various items doesn't tell you the program will work. |
I think you haven't even tried DRM if you speak of it like that. You can do everything what can be done with the actual version. You only can't export your work. The Demo version of DRM (Pro) is perfectly good for what it was created for: Demonstrating how the software works. I use the Demo myself on my laptop, because it's a company owned PC and I can't use it for work with DVDs right now (it will change soon though  ) . It is perfect to see what's going on with certain DVD files. |
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toaddub
Moderator
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 1995
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 6:15 pm Post subject: |
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How much is the upgrade price from Regular to Pro? I don't see it on the DRM Order page, but only on the MenuEdit page. | Quote: | | Why? Each transaction costs us some money. |
I'm curious, how much does Paypal charge you for each transaction? An ebay seller would know. Will the price be the same as v2 if one purchase the v3 (not the upgrade), or does it go up? I've been telling my friend how many things you can do with DRM/DRM Pro compared to other products. He's impressed but when he came to the site, and looked at the price, he was not thrilled. | Quote: | | 4) The upgrade price from Regular to Pro is too much. Buying Regular then upgrading to Pro if it's not powerful enough should cost the same as buying Pro initially. Especially when combined with 3), when you don't know if Regular does the job you need. |
@Dimad, I have a suggestion. Of course, the decision is all yours. I see many stores have a 14-day return/exchange policy on software purchases. If you open the shrink-wrapped product, you cannot return but only exchange. As an analogy, since a customer downloads, he/she, of course, cannot ask for a refund. If a customer purchases DRM, but later finds out that he needs DRM Pro. With a 14-day policy, he only needs to pay a difference up to DRM Pro price (Using 10% discount, $35.96 - $22.46 = $13.5). This is so a customer does not get penalized for buying the wrong product within a 14-day grace period. When the 14-day grace period passes starting from the first download date after purchase, a full upgrade price is charged. | Quote: | | We will have something simmilar implemented by the release of v3. |
Looking forward to it. Please put that on the Order Page of each product. I prefer if you have the policy announced before v2.5-v2.7 comes out, so any future customers can make his/her decision to buy now or later. | Quote: | | 3) The demo is useless. Just making some menu choices and clicking various items doesn't tell you the program will work. |
I have the same thought as Scottie and Erdoke. And I also understand the concern that Dimad has. How 'bout this: make it a 14-day trial with export enabled? But I think Dimad is afraid that the software may be hacked. I guess keeping the counter in the registry, some outside file is too obvious. But if it is 128-bit encrypted (I know there are some command-line freeware), and/or hard-code in the program itself, it will be extremely difficult to be tampered. Implementation will be more work, but looking at the long term investment, advertising (even word-of-mouth), and the robustness of the software, I think it is worth it. My friend asks me to voice his opinion about the price. He doesn't have time to come here and create an account and comment. So I'm just doing him a favor, and please don't take it out on me. Recently for the past few months, Nero 6.3 Ultra Edition has been on sale in Fry's Electronics. $69.99 (In-store price) - $20 (Upgrade Mail-in Rebate) = $49.99 (After rebate). When comparing with DRM Pro, it is a lot better bargain since Nero package has many products that can do so many things. It is no match to DRM Pro when it comes to DVD Authoring, but it accounts for so many features that DRM Pro lacks. Also think of the man-hours. Which takes longer to develop: Nero 6 Ultra Edition or DRM Pro? He thinks DRM Pro is overpriced ($35.96), and if he buys now, he has to pay for another major upgrade (v3), which totals over $50. That's like Nero price. He thinks DRM Pro should be around $20-$30, and the upgrade price is $5, when compared with Nero $20 upgrade rebate considering many products (even new ones) it contains. I told him it is up to the author's discretion. |
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Scottie Ferguson
Newbie
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: Thinking about buying, have a few concerns |
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| DimadSoft wrote: | | Each copy will run correctly only on a computer it was downloaded for. At any time when your computer changes you simply download a new copy from you DimadSoft account. |
Ok, that's a decent policy. I read that should operations cease, you'd provide a final update to remove this, so that concern is eliminated. As long as you don't get hit by a bus. | Quote: | | Why? Each transaction costs us some money. |
True, but most paypal fees are percentages, and 4% of $40 is equal to (4% of $25 + 4% of $15). I believe currency conversions are percentages as well, so those work out the same in one transaction vs two. There is the flat fee portion as well for paypal, but that's like 30 cents US per transaction. Charging $5 extra to make up for about 50 cents in fees seems a tad excessive. But perhaps there are other fees I'm unaware of. Hey, it's your business, you can run it as you want, but if it were me, I'd be eating that extra fee. The most volatile time in your relationship with a customer is right at the beginning, before they've had a chance to develop some positive feelings for your company and your product. It doesn't take much to piss some folks off. Anyways, thanks for the response. I'll have to see if I can convince the wife to open up the pursestrings. | erdoke wrote: | | I think you haven't even tried DRM if you speak of it like that. You can do everything what can be done with the actual version. You only can't export your work. The Demo version of DRM (Pro) is perfectly good for what it was created for: Demonstrating how the software works. |
Sorry, I'll have to disagree with you on this one. DRM is a tool. DVD's are complex things, just because the tool loads on the computer doesn't mean that *I* can work the tool. The current demo mode is akin to a demo of a paintbrush, where I can hold it and wave it around in the air, but not actually touch it to the canvas. |
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MackemX
DVD Specialist
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 1:37 am Post subject: |
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Hi and welcome to the forums Scottie Ferguson some of my answers and opinions 1) I guess that's been answered and it's good to see new customers won't be penalised for buying a little too early. I agree about the upgrade fee as it would be a good customer relations thing but I suppose that's up to Dimad 2) I'm yet to see anyone complain about the fact they cannot download DRM anymore. If anyone ever is then a quick email to Dimad will probably sort it out . Menuedit had the same thig and again I never saw an unhappy chappies 3) as people mention, the demo does everything but export so it's like driving a simulator and you can get to know most of what you can do with it. I know you can't see your results but it gives you a general idea of whether the GUI is too much for you. Demo's eventually get cracked and I think if the DRM demo was fully functional and then got cracked (which it would) then it would affect development badly. Where would the motivation come from to add new features if most people used warez? 4) the 14 day upgrade from Standard to Pro would be cool so that people who buy the Standard don't get penalised. Some may feel the PRO has many features they think they don't need but soon realise they do after trying the standard version and it's a shame they get penalised by wanting to upgrade. I'm pretty sure you can get both versions in the download demo but maybe I'm mistaken a good clue on whether a software actually works is to check the forums and read the problem threads. How many unsatisfied posts do you see here? I see a few but I bet most are being (have been) looked at. The vast majority always get resolved or at least have a temporary workaround anyway. I know there are problematic DVD's but there always will be with DVD backup software. With the Master Butcher around though (me ) along with the rest of the regulars then most of them will be resolved as these things aren't as complicated as they look I understand what you say about the price and comparing it to other softwares and again I've voiced my opinion in this department as $36 is a lot to most people. I feel a cheaper price would mean more happy customers that would spread word even more but again it's up to Dimad so all I can do is say what I think  looking at it another way though, say you have a collection of 50 DVD's. That's $0.72 per DVD to customize them the way you want. Not forgetting that the figure will drop the more DVD's you buy and backup . If you have a small collection of say 1 DVD then it doesn't work out so well regardless, we hope to see you in the DRM owners club soon anyway  |
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toaddub
Moderator
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 1995
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:24 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | 3) as people mention, the demo does everything but export so it's like driving a simulator and you can get to know most of what you can do with it. I know you can't see your results but it gives you a general idea of whether the GUI is too much for you. Demo's eventually get cracked and I think if the DRM demo was fully functional and then got cracked (which it would) then it would affect development badly. Where would the motivation come from to add new features if most people used warez? |
I understand there are pros and cons of this. Let me try to put myself in the customer's point of view. I've been to Technology Expos where companies demonstrate their products to customers. The sellers boast how beneficial their features are to the customers by demonstrating several aspects of the product. If the customers can't see the end result after performing some functions, how likely will the customers trust that the product actually works. From the developer's side, yes, the product may eventually get cracked. But it all depends on how well the product is designed, and how much effort the developer is willing to research and strategize. One possible alternative comes to mind: make DRM demo have limited features and export as a test so the customer knows it works. By limited, I'm thinking of limited time play, limited MB export, can't hide certain blocks, can't hide buttons, possibilities are endless. If the developer does this in the code, there's no way it can be cracked. It's like who can currently cracked the export feature in the demo, if it has been disabled in the function/procedure. Another alternative is to accomodate encryption tactics in the full featured DRM demo. I see many products make use of serial/product keys, and put it in the registry. Some even makes use of the system timer. I think that's bad. This certainly can be cracked. It doesn't have to be cracked even. There will be people who will give out their key and post it on the net, or give to their friends. With 128-bit encryption, how easy is it for DRM to be hacked!? It's impossible. Only an Einstein genius maybe able to do it, or the movie Paycheck, where Ben Affleck stars as a reverse engineer. But is it worth the effort? DRM is not expensive compared to other commercial products. Since DRM is written in Visual C++, I think I read a few year's back in UT there's an encryption routine (published in a book) that can come in handy. Well, there are many resources on the net and in libraries. It all depends on Dimad's decision and willingness to research. |
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erdoke
Respected Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 342
Location: Lat. 47.3350 ° | Long. 21.3850 °
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| toaddub wrote: | | From the developer's side, yes, the product may eventually get cracked. But it all depends on how well the product is designed, and how much effort the developer is willing to research and strategize. One possible alternative comes to mind: make DRM demo have limited features and export as a test so the customer knows it works. By limited, I'm thinking of limited time play, limited MB export, can't hide certain blocks, can't hide buttons, possibilities are endless. If the developer does this in the code, there's no way it can be cracked. It's like who can currently cracked the export feature in the demo, if it has been disabled in the function/procedure. |
I agree on what would be ideal for costumers. But. Let's assume that DimadSoft products are develeoped by a small team and right now financial reasons are limiting the number of programmers working on these software projects. What do you prefer: Developers making efforts (much effort with your words) on enhancing the security of the software against crackers OR they're adding new features to the product with that same effort? I definitely prefer the second version. |
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DimadSoft
DvdReMake Official support
Joined: 19 Mar 2004
Posts: 2193
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 8:50 am Post subject: |
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| toaddub wrote: | | How much is the upgrade price from Regular to Pro? I don't see it on the DRM Order page, but only on the MenuEdit page. |
http://cdr-zone.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1028 Concerning price and features. If your friend thinks Nero is what he needs - he should get Nero and be happy. We would not want to have an unhappy user DRM interface may not seems fancy (we where designing it to be convenient - not impressive) but trast us there are quite a few things inside to support "smart" dvd editing (and there are more comming). Another thing is, there was a post by MackemX somewhere around with a link to Mac program simmilar to DRM Pro which costs about $2000 (if I remember that post right) |
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MackemX
DVD Specialist
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 2:40 pm Post subject: |
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| tell me how many program demo's haven't been cracked? Not that many and as erdoke mentions the more they spend on the demo security the more the crackers will spend so it's pointless . I can see it from both sides as I once sold DVDstripper and that didn't have a demo at all, just word of mouth. I refunded twice overall and one guy came back and bought it when the next version was released and I think the other guy owns DRM now most DRM owners will agree that DRM works most times and if it doesn't then support is better than quite a lot of other softwares to overcome those problems. Yes there are problems with certain DVD's unresolved but there isn't a software out there that is compatiable with every DVD ever made . If people are not sure it works then ask in the forum if it was crap and it didn't work I'm pretty sure there would be plenty of people voicing their opinions in here right now but I don't see anyone , only a few problematic DVD's Nero and DRM are 2 totally different things as there are things Nero cannot do and there are things DRM can't do. Most of the things you can do with Nero can be done with DVDShrink and DVDDecrypter anyway |
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toaddub
Moderator
Joined: 12 Sep 2004
Posts: 1995
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| MackemX wrote: | | tell me how many program demo's haven't been cracked? |
One. DRM Pro. I can't help it when you ask me to this question.  Just thought the tone of this thread is kinda tense, so why not "crack" a joke. ok, I think I'm out-debated here. I guess it's not worth it to enhance the security, while more time is spent to enhance the features. Again, looking forward to it. Good discussions by the way, guys. cheers.... Thx Dimad for the link. I didn't bother to look in this forum until the thread is moved here. |
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erdoke
Respected Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 342
Location: Lat. 47.3350 ° | Long. 21.3850 °
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| toaddub wrote: | | One. DRM Pro. I can't help it when you ask me to this question. Just thought the tone of this thread is kinda tense, so why not "crack" a joke. |
I didn't feel it being tense. Personally I think we can speak about topics like that here. Where else? |
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Scottie Ferguson
Newbie
Joined: 29 Sep 2004
Posts: 34
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nope, not tense at all. Just a level headed honest discussion. Was thinking about the demo issue today, and an obvious choice would be to allow test exporting in the demo. Product is unusable to make copies, yet the prospective buyer can actually see how removing items, changing menus etc would work. |
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erdoke
Respected Member
Joined: 16 Aug 2004
Posts: 342
Location: Lat. 47.3350 ° | Long. 21.3850 °
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Scottie Ferguson wrote: | | Was thinking about the demo issue today, and an obvious choice would be to allow test exporting in the demo. Product is unusable to make copies, yet the prospective buyer can actually see how removing items, changing menus etc would work. |
I have no clue about programming, but it seems to me that Test Exporting differs from full exporting only in size... |
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MackemX
DVD Specialist
Joined: 10 Nov 2003
Posts: 815
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| Posted: Fri Oct 01, 2004 11:42 pm Post subject: |
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| lol, I meant functional demos and it's not tense as you say, it's just a discussion. Some companies can absorb cracked demos due to large sales such as Nero etc but Littleguysware can't and it has a far greater effect . I have experienced this from both sides now. My attitudes have changed a little since DVDStripper as I can see how you want to protect your software, time and efforts I also thought a test export demo would be a good idea but maybe it would have to include enough code to be cracked. Maybe a time of 10000000 seconds could be put in but then again maybe it can't I'm sure if a demo could be made then it would be, as it can only be a good thing. The less cracked software is used then the more support and updates 'true' DRM users get. We have seen a few 2.2.0 users here and elsewhere draining suppport resources saying the DVD does not play and you can spot them a mile off now |
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